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Eyeing the Case Before the Caribbean Court of Justice

Shanique Myrie, photo- islandsunited.comThe judgment in a case now proceeding through the Caribbean Court of Justice (CCJ) could prove to be a landmark in the movement of West Indians through each other’s countries.

Shanique Myrie, a Jamaican, alleges that on 14 March 2011, (then 22 years old), she was originally allowed entry into Barbados at Grantley Adams International Airport for a month when her passport was stamped, and that two hours later she was taken by a female immigration officer to a bathroom where she was allegedly “finger raped”, abused with foul language, threatened and then denied entry.

The government of Barbados is the defendant in the case.  It has been accused of violating its obligations under the Revised Treaty of Chaguaramas (the CARICOM Treaty) and a Caribbean Community (CARICOM) Heads of Government decision in 2007.  According to Myrie’s lawyers, denial of her right of entry was “unjustifiable, arbitrary and thus led to discrimination.”



The full trial will begin next month pitting the Barbados government, as defendant, against both Myrie and the Government of Jamaica which has intervened alongside her in the case.   Three other Jamaican women have offered themselves as witnesses, saying that they too have been victims of improper treatment by Barbados immigration officials.

The Jamaican government’s argument is that its substantial legal interests in the case lies in the circumstance that any judgment rendered will establish a binding precedent for all CARICOM member states.  In a preliminary hearing, in October 2012, the CCJ agreed.

Prior to the case going before the CCJ in April 2012, the Barbados government said that it had conducted its own inquiry and it upheld the position of the Immigration authorities that its officers had acted in accordance with the law and regulations.   However, the Barbados government’s lawyers admitted to the CCJ hearing that the case was “arguable”.  Hence, it is proceeding.

Since the establishment of CARICOM in 1973, tens of thousands of CARICOM nationals have travelled in its member states with no difficulty.  However, a significant number have complained of discrimination by immigration officials at the point of entry of several Caribbean countries - some, even when they are travelling on Canadian, US and European Union passports.
 
All of this has raised questions about the value and relevance of CARICOM to the citizens of its 15 member countries.  Indeed, these events have created resentment and an inclination to dismiss CARICOM as nothing but a government ‘talking shop’.  The governments themselves have not done enough to address the problem, which if a solution is not found, will undermine the worth of CARICOM to many of its citizens.

Just recently, on 28 January, the highly-regarded, former Prime Minister of Jamaica, P J Patterson, publicly asked at a meeting of the Rotary Club in Guyana: “What purpose does the CARICOM Passport serve if travelling within the Region is still like an obstacle race”?

The CARICOM passport was introduced by many member governments in 2009 although the Bahamas and Haiti have not done so, and Monsterrat is prohibited from doing so because it remains a British colony.  However, the passport itself does not ease entry into the countries of CARICOM.   While the word ‘Caricom’ is emblazoned on its cover, it is still a passport of the nation that issued it; it does not relieve the holder of the rigorous attention of immigration officers at CARICOM ports, nor does it, by itself, facilitate ease of entry.

The problem, of course, goes far beyond a CARICOM passport.  It really strikes at the heart of what a ‘Community’ is about.  In the European Union (EU) the 27 member states of the Community have EU passports but they also have, entrenched in their community law, freedom of their peoples to move to, and reside, work and study in, each other’s countries.

CARICOM governments will not overcome the problem of how nationals are treated at ports of entry until they deal with the more fundamental issue of perfecting the CARICOM Single Market and Economy (CSME) which provides for the free movement of goods, services and capital throughout the signatory member states (Bahamas is not a signatory).  Once all the legislative provisions are put in place, the free movement of people will be a natural consequence – just as it is in the EU, the Federation of the United States of America, and the Federation of Canada.



Rights of establishment, and arrangements for transfer of social security and medical benefits between CARICOM countries – all these have to be put in place before complete freedom of movement can occur, because without them the people of the host state would have to bear the cost of new migrants. The problem is that little or no progress has been made by governments in recent years to perfect the CSME.

The majority of CARICOM citizens would understand the need for the legislative and other requirements before there can be full freedom of movement.  What they will not understand, however, is why their place of birth in a CARICOM country should, by itself, elicit unfriendliness and hostility.

Further, despite the fact that businesspeople and other professionals traverse the region everyday to transact business, CARICOM governments have not devised a way for them to apply for a stamp in their passports that would establish their bona fides and allow them access to a special line at Airports such as the ones reserved for diplomats and airline staff.  Yet these business people are the ones who keep alive CARICOM trade in goods and services, and investment.

The Shanique Myrie case before the CCJ will help to determine the obligations of CARICOM member governments to the people of CARICOM countries who travel to – or through – other CARICOM States.  The case is being watched by interested eyes and the judgment cautiously awaited.

Sir Ronald Sanders is a Consultant, former senior Caribbean Ambassador and now Visiting Fellow, London University.

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68 Comments In This Article   

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@ Tenman

#68 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 14:37

I am not against unity, i am against doing it at a time where the countries are not ready and it will cause more issues than helping.

No Caricom is ready because society is not ready, mentally and socially, criminologicall y, financially. nope
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@ Observer

#67 Morris » 2013-02-11 12:37

Very interesting account! I think many of us, at one point or another, have experienced something similar, because I know I have.

The main reason for that is many of us have attached negative stereotypes to our selves and to our C'bean brothers and sisters especially. We still have the mentality we acquired from our slave masters; we must demonize each other so that we can find favor in the masters' eyes. Pay attention to the gov't focus on FDI (mostly white investors) to jump start the economy while dismissing the locals entrepreneurs' plight for access to the market. Notice the priority and effort given to crimes committed against whites while locals often times get little to no responses. Look how the gov't often seek foreign entities to complete projects for exorbitant fees that locals could have done for a fraction of the cost. This is the behavior that has to change for us to move forward.

Anyway, I know that you are already aware of the examples I highlighted so I will get off my soapbox.
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Observer

#66 tenman » 2013-02-11 11:44

Observer, well said. This is exactly what I tried to communicate in my first comment. I just think the way we fix the problem is by recognizing it, and taking real steps to fix it. Its time we realize that no island can stand on its own. I cannot help but remember some words from a song by David Rudder, Rally round the West indies which emphasizes the need for West Indian Unity:

Quote:
Now they are making restrictions and laws to spoil our beauty But in the end we shall prevail This is not just cricket, this thing goes beyond the boundary It's up to you and me to make sure that they fail Soon we must take a side or be lost in the rubble In a divided world that don't need islands no more Are doomed forever to be at somebody's mercy? Little keys can open up mighty doors
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Dessalines

#65 tenman » 2013-02-11 11:34

Dessalines you are in such a hurry to attack that you miss the salient point. We already get a list of persons, the problem Cort cites is that it lacks details. The details he wants (on an individual basis) is best sought from the country the crime was committed (US or UK). Are you trying to suggest that its unusual for local law enforcement to get details on persons from other law enforcement entities outside Antigua (especially the US or UK)? Dessalines, stop allowing your emotions to make you illogical
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Black People are their own worst enimy #4

#64 Observer.. » 2013-02-11 11:02

Even worst between Caribbean brothers and sisters. Have you ever been to immigration? You will see how they treat the white foreigners and the Caribbean people. Completely different. The white immigrants are not deported even if their time has expired. And they hardly ever are being refused a work permit. And not to mention at the airport. Custom would search every corner of your luggage. In a nutshell black people claim to love themselves, but in reality it’s far from the truth. I don’t think slavery would have even been possible if black people had not sold one another out to the white people. So this case proof how hypocritical we are when it comes to calling ourselves one Caribbean One People. No matter how much cricket has so called united us. As David Rudder sings, “Rally round the West Indies”. I hope one day we truly will be One West Indies travelling through the Islands without boundaries.
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Black People are their own worst enimy #3

#63 Observer.. » 2013-02-11 11:01

I haven’t been home for about 10 years and was not aware how the Islands had developed. Our trip started in Barbados. Yes lovely Barbados. It was a very cold winter we just left behind and coming into the tropics was awesome. We stayed at the Sunset Cress. I got a rude awakening the very next day. As I walked on the compound every security guard stopped me to ask if I was guest, while my white German friend was greeted with a big smile. Of course even my friend started laughing at me, because I use to complain about discrimination in Europe where I was always ask questions by either police or someone else about what I’m doing there etc. And my excuse was that it was because I was black they discriminated me. But what do I say in my own Caribbean Islands? Because I am black they are questioning me! We visited many other hotels to have either breakfast or lunch and in each hotel I had to go through the same questioning by security. Are you a guest? While my white German friend got the big smile and welcome. Even now that I have moved back here at home I see the same things.
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Black People are their own worst enimy #2

#62 Observer.. » 2013-02-11 11:00

. And my father’s saying always came back in some way to haunt me. Black people are their own worst enemy. It was the crab in the barrel mentality. Where anyone trying to further him/herself was seen to be nuff. And before you know it rejected by the same group. I made a lot of white friends. And again my experience was that these were true friends and always there to lift me up. I was able to more depend on my white friends then my black friends. Even today I still communicate with most of my white friends and just a few of my black friends. And that is not for the lack of trying to stay in touch. Even the conversations were difference. With my white friends it was about the family and with my black friends it was about women. In the late 70’s I took one of my German friends to a Caribbean trip to show him where I come from and how we live so peacefully. He was fascinated by Bob Marley who was just breaking every chart in Europe introducing “get up stand up” and other conscious reggae music.
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Black People are their own worst enimy #1

#61 Observer.. » 2013-02-11 10:59

Black people are their own worst enemy, my father used to always say. And as a young child I never use to understand his bitterness about that. But growing up I have come to understand and experience this myself first hand. Growing up in Europe in the early 70’s I had to experience for the first time discrimination. I came to understand the world was not just about people being good or bad, but also black and white and whatever in between. Now discrimination was a hard reality and somehow has shaped many blacks growing up between the European whites. You then look for groups to belong to. Especially in college where you form with others of different races and different nationality various packs. Like the Black Power pack. Nevertheless you learn to live with your white schoolmates and make friends. My experience was that having friends with my black brothers was fine and I felt at home in the group. But when you look at the situation as an outsider it was like misery looking for company.
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@ Tenman

#60 Dessalines » 2013-02-11 07:40

You are so busy making up lame excuses you trip over yourself. How can Antigua get a list of Jamaican or any other countries deportees from the US or UK? Can Cort call up the UK Home office and ask for a list of Jamaican deportees???
And you still have not answered the million dollar question, if it is a question of list of deportees how is it that the Jamaican deportees got to Antigua. Isn't it on a plane through our immigration. Why weren't they stopped at the airport if they were on a list???
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@ Dig It

#59 Dessalines » 2013-02-11 07:37

If you were following the Greece meltdown you would have realized that Greece 'fudged' their books to qualify for entry to the EU. French ex-president Sarkozy even said so publicly when threatening to kick them out. I don't see what your point is anyway. Are you saying that because France and Germany did not 'foresee' what would happen to Greece that there isn't a criteria/condit ions to be met to join the EU?????????
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my way of helping

#58 tenman » 2013-02-11 01:11

my way of helping: The switch has already started. Belize no longer uses the privy council as its final court, its now the CCJ. Trinidad no longer uses the privy council for criminal matters. Jamaica's government has tabled legislation to move away from the privy council. Barbados, and Guyana have signed up for the CCJ. Dominica this year will make the CCJJ its final court. There is an interesting article at jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20121118/focus/focus1.html which makes the case that our judges (lower courts) are not worse that UK judges. my way of helping sometimes its best to let the facts be your guide and not just your heart.

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@ Tenman

#57 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 00:54

Nothing is perfect, there will be always be neatives but there is a level that a reasonable person will find acceptable, i do not find how we are, how we think, how we treat each other acceptable at this time. Again, look at the politicians, the people, the police officers as we so often blog on here about, but mostly, look at the politicians.

So, do we want the same people in our court, running Caricom, are we ready to be in more intimate relationships, Sorry, we are not ready for sex yet. Let us talk over the phone more and develop some more. You think Caricom will make us, the week stronger but joining force together but no, it will make us, all of us in the caricom community even weaker. Until Socio-economics is developed for all countries.
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Take ourself out the picture and what is best

#56 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 00:45

wishing and praying for something, does not mean it is right at the moment. I am the one who has always preached/advoca ted for togetherness but this type of togetherness outlined in CARICOM is not the way to go, at this time.

For once, close your eyes, clear your mind to what YOU want and look at the facts, all of it and see the conclusion. You be Barbados, or you be Antigua, or you Be a Jamaican or you be a Domincan, just image.

I recommend for us to continue the independent approach to the travelling in caricom. the passport, visa, work authorisation requirements to traveling to our neighbouring states. until we change our heart, and mind Caricom is a no for me, court of appeals in the OECS is a no for me and Most politicians in Antigua is a no for me. Sorry guys.
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MY WAY OF HELPING

#55 tenman » 2013-02-11 00:33

MY WAY OF HELPING can you point to a perfect judicial system? Has it not even been stated by some that even the US supreme court has made "bad" decisions? Some claim the court is too politically stacked (see The Supreme Court: Just Politics by Other Means? Posted: 06/26/2012 2:43 pm Huffington Post). However, Americans at the end of the day would never even entertain the notion of turning to some foreign court. The Privy counsel has also been sending the signal that its time for us to do our own thing. Its always amazing hearing those who defend the privy council then lament its views on capital punishment not being inline with the region's values.
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@ Morris

#54 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 00:31

Morris, at this time, from facts, observation, precedence, experience, I, in a heart beat would take my case to almost any of the developed countries to reside/ adjudicate over my case, if i had a case, than having that case heard at a court of law in Antigua, and any of the caribbean Islands.

Not because i hate my country or my fellow caribbean countries but because i know how we think and act. We have not change but instead we have gotten worse according to my observation, Morris is pass blogs, tenman in pass blogs, practically everyone here, so why on earth would be have so many people around us and we are not gettin better at relationships, dealing with each other? The caricom will be a detriment if fully implemented, it is a fact and it is not time to implement it fully until careful research with solutions of problems which may arrive is developed. because it works for tommy, it does not mean it will work for Cari
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@ John French II

#53 Morris » 2013-02-11 00:31

I've given 25 years of my life to the US military and have found myself on many a distant shores trying to get people to put aside their differences (some centuries old) and work together for the common good. Now all I wish for is that the C'bean islands to be united under one umbrella.
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@ Morris

#52 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 00:22

Morris you should display what i fear most, condemning without knowing, Because pass white, english slave owner beat and torture us, it means Privy council will not hand down a MORE fair justice than having such court in our country that everyday on here we talk about nepotism with politicians, police, and even us civilians cast vote for who we like but not on who will do the job properly.

@ Morris, i rest my case
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@ Morris

#51 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-11 00:18

Every court in the world understand your heart and even put it is the definition of a crime, it is called INTENT, others are also called mitigating circumstances. That is what understanding heart is.

No, us caribbean folks, as soon as you hear something, you condemn, convict and persecute, you should know this, it happen a lot on here. Again, Caricom is a bad idea at this time and i do not see that changing anytime soon
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JFII

#50 tenman » 2013-02-11 00:17

JFII, see comment 2013-02-10 21:09 I did question the numbers. I know (data mining and some statistics courses) our small size cause outliers to distort the numbers and paint too rosy a picture

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Morris & JFII

#49 tenman » 2013-02-11 00:11

Morris & JFII well said.

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@ Morris - Centered In Time & Space!

#48 John French II » 2013-02-11 00:08

Notes From A Native Son Of The Rock! Have admired your cerebral, clinical and operational dissection of issues as a military man.
It is most heartening to see your passion for this issue being expressed so beautifully in relationship to psychol ogical time and space. But you guys are trained in this. Sadly missing in These SIDS.
Go Well. Much Respect!
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Cultural & Psychological Location! PT3

#47 John French II » 2013-02-10 23:50

Notes From A Native Son Of The Rock! The OECS & Caricom are Visionary Paradigms, maybe a revolutionary shift, for some colonial minds, in thinking of a proposed constructural adjustment to disorientation, decenteredness & lack of agency. We must ask ourselves "what are our natural responses in the relationships, attitudes towards (the caribbean), kinship patterns, preferences for colours, types of religions & historical referent points" as propounded by Asante. Morris Well Said!
In Academia, students are encouraged to use the Web for research, they are reminded to check other citations & to double check.
Tenman, watched with an eagle's eye to see how you would slay these Windmills. The use of WB was la creme de la creme. One must be careful with data, requires a deeper penetration to arrive at what is apropos. Using the Fact sheet should have prompted the question how many on the Rock make EC $908.00/WK. It is a poor reference number to understand our condition. A mind geared to the OECS or Caricom would have gone to the ECCB as a check on the number.
A&B lost 4.7% from 2002-11to immigration to the US alone. Can A&B sustain that? Study Population Growth!
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@ John French II

#46 Morris » 2013-02-10 23:34

Well said!
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@ MY WAY OF HELPING

#45 Morris » 2013-02-10 23:33

In response to your statement "Do you think we should have a court where people do not understand your heart and what you are tying to convey and immediately prosecute you and others?" let me ask you this, which system in the world pass judgment based on understanding your heart vs. breaking the law? So you think the very same people who've enslaved our ancestors and plundered our lands for centuries had understanding hearts and were trying to convey what? And these are the right people for us to continue to entrust our justice system to? I wonder if they will ever have an understanding heart and give some compensation to the C'bean islands for their past pain and suffering.
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Cultural & Psychological Location! PT2

#44 John French II » 2013-02-10 23:04

Notes From A Native son of the Rock! Those steeped in Colonial Thought & Xenophobia missed the Import of two Caribbean SIDS settling this at home & not abroad. Quote:
How Long O' Lord? Will you forget me forever?... Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death. My enemy will say, "I have overcome him," and my foes will rejoice when I fall. - The People of The Book
Some argue about the EU & its Birthdate. Just as the Lady Secretary of State asked, What does this have to do with it? It happened, Let us find solutions to arrive at a more perfect union rather than wallow in the mud of colonial Xenophobia. Did we not learn from the WI Federation? As they say are we so "Hardheaded" or just chained to a DNA of "Ethical Badmindednes" while the rest of the world is forming economic & political alliances.
Many moons ago, this mere voice warned that if LIAT & CAL did not get their act together they would be left parked on the Ramp. American Airlines, bankrupt with the largest new fleet will be joining forces with US Airways to become the largest in the world. They abandoned the San Jan/Island routes & neithe LIAT or CAL stepped up. Have Mercy Pon Us!
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Dessalines

#43 tenman » 2013-02-10 23:00

Dessalines Cort did not say what you claimed. He stated the information provided was not detailed enough:
Quote:
He said local authorities do not have adequate mechanisms to monitor such individuals, due to a lack of detail on their previous history and the offences they’ve committed. http://www.antiguaobserver.com/?p=87162
It was not about a list not being provided. I would think if this was true and since we are speaking about US or UK deportees, it would not be a problem getting this information from the US or UK authorities. Don't you think this best since its in these countries the crime was committed?

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@ Tenman

#42 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 22:50

It is not about i feel i am better or they feel they are better, life is much more complex than that TENMAN
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@ Morris

#41 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 22:49

You are right knowing difficulty will exist is not enough to say do away with Caricom but i do know because we are not socially prepared, mentally, financially, criminologicall y prepared, economically prepared is more that enough to say, hold off on Caricom. All my statements on here is about holding off on implementing Caricom in the manner in which it was intended.

Do you think we should have a court where people do not understand your heart and what you are tying to convey and immediately prosecute you and others? Do you think you should have a court of appeals in **y as Antigua or in the caribbean? be honest, use your heart.

@ Tenman, I am actually not putting any country on a pedestal, i am referring to how individuals think and how Antiguans think and other caribbean countries. You think, assume, me being against Caricom is because i am putting a country before other countries, nope. You should know me by now, my love, respect and wanting of fairness and equity. Having such union as the Caricom Union will cause unaffair issues for SOME countries that will cause ISSUES for ALL CARICOM.
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@Dessalines, Tenman & My Way Of Helping pt. 1

#40 Dig It » 2013-02-10 22:48

Tenman, you have your hands full here, I see! Quit taking last lick! My Way of Helping, regardless how we think on CARICOM, the fact of the matter is, all of its member states must "uphold" the "Treaty of Chaguaramasas," in promoting integration and cooperation. That starts with the 'heads-of-gover nment.' As I am always told "If you want to be a **erfly, you must be willing to give up being a caterpillar."
Quote:
A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots.
Marcus Garvey

Good night all.
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@Dessalines, Tenman & My Way Of Helping pt. 1

#39 Dig It » 2013-02-10 22:47

Dessalines,you said in your post to TenmanQuote:
"The EU movement integration movement started in the late 1950s when France and Germany merged their steel and coal industries and then expanded from there over a period of 40 plus years."
I am not sure what's your point? Or, what it has to do with the EU's economic integration? You then say that "For countries to ascend to the EU they have to satisfy the conditions of membership which include (political, social and economic and legislative conditions )." So, did France or Germany or other members of EU could "predict" Greece to be in this predicament or any state that is 'Burden?" I just find your logic "moot" on this one!
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Schengen Information System

#38 tenman » 2013-02-10 22:42

Dessalines you mentioned the Schengen Information System. You do realize that there has been glitches with this system? Honestly I will never argue that we can not do better when it comes to information management. Again as stated in an earlier post I just find it strange that we were quite willing to go unprotected when it comes to travelers from outside the region. Stanegely when it comes to regional travelers we demand even more protection than a condom. Not only was Shanique Myrie required to have a passport, she also had to be subjected to not one but two cavity searches. If the suspicion was that she was going to engage in prostitution why grant her a 30 day stay by stamping her passport, and then turn around later and start searching her for drugs?

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Cultural & Psychological Location!

#37 John French II » 2013-02-10 22:42

Notes From A Native Son Of The Rock! Friends, CountryWomen/Me n, That the Knight from the Royal Court Of St. James has shaken awake many from their Xenophobic Slumber is most annoying.
Few if any have been troubled by the Historical Precedents of our Middle Passage from Africa to these lands when simmilar indignities - physical invasions & inspections - were meeted out to our Ancestors. That similar behaviour still exists & guides perspectives exemplifies how defining has been our physical & mental slavery.
For Most of Mankind on this Earth & maybe Mars & Venus if not Pluto, we are one community, yet we cling to the outdated "colonial perspective" of divide & conquer. Conquer what? Insular & Xenophobic Poverty!
Full Disclosure, Have received the most dastardly behaviour in Barbados & Trinidad in all of my travels around the Globe. Trinidad was even worse when it was known that as A consultant was travelling with other North Atlantic Consultant Colleagues who were given easy passage while this Native of A&B was made to walk the plank.
Whether you agree with Caricom or not, The CCJ Ruling will be a Landmark! Not The Law Lords Of Privy Council!
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@ Dessalines

#36 Morris » 2013-02-10 22:19

I applaud your efforts, but every union in life is a process with issues: marriage, friendship, employer-employ ee, US, EU, UK to name a few. So to think that CARICOM would not have issues should not even be grounds for condemnation. The key is to ensure that the treaty benefits every country equally.
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Dessalines

#35 tenman » 2013-02-10 22:00

Dessalines, I simply find it hard to believe what you wrote about the Minister. I suspect I know the man enough that even if true he would never admit it. The man in charge of immigration has been clear that there are systems in place to deal with persons in and out of the region who are on watch lists :
Quote:
He said the system is part of the secondary checks performed on persons of interest to the Immigration Department, and that the regular passenger using the airport will not normally be asked to submit to screening via the machine. Walker added that the new equipment will also play a role in administering the Freedom of Movement protocol signed by Caricom and OECS countries. Read more: http://www.caribarena.com/antigua/news/latest/102572-fingerprinting-introduced-at-airport.html#ixzz2KYH2BqQT
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@ MY WAY OF HELPING

#34 Morris » 2013-02-10 21:52

You are really something else...lol. The EU, with their historical indifferences (political, economical, social, military, religious etc.), has proven to the world that countries can put aside their differences and come together as one. If they can do it, then so can we. It is this type of attitude of non-confidence in ourselves that has kept us in stagnation for all of these years.

As independent countries, our judicial system should be our responsibility and not given to another to administrate. Our laws, policies, and customs are uniquely ours and therefore should be handled by our courts.
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Dessalines - per capita income

#33 tenman » 2013-02-10 21:46

Dessalines the figure for Antigua GNI came from the world bank data.worldbank.org/country/antigua-and-barbuda.


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@ Tenman /my way of helping

#32 Dessalines » 2013-02-10 21:41

Another pillar of the EU integration policy is the Schengen Information System - this is a huge database of border control, law enforcement and judicial co-operation between the EU member states. Criminals, stolen items, lost ID documents, wanted persons and persons refused entry into any EU state are shared among all members of the EU even with police at the street level.
Here in Antigua a minister recently admitted that the region has no mechanisms to prevent criminal deportees from other Caricom countries from entering our shores. In fact he stated that they know of some living among us that had slipped through the cracks. The only pillar holding Caricom together is the perks that it's officals enjoy especially travel and the per diem that goes with it.
The eastern caribbean should focus on the OECS and leave Caricom to sort itself out.
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MY WAY OF HELPING

#31 tenman » 2013-02-10 21:24

Quote:
A pedestal is as much a prison as any small, confined space. Gloria Steinem
MY WAY OF HELPING -my problem lies in the reasons you are giving. The new argument that persons outside Antigua think differently than Antiguans is something I more expect from comments by persons like Good Job Bob aka island buoy (in a negastive way). MY WAY OF HELPING one of the worst things you can do to a people is make them not human. Try putting your wife/ girlfriend on a pedestal and see how long the marriage lasts. Try treating her like crap and see similar results

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MY WAY OF HELPING

#30 tenman » 2013-02-10 21:13

MY WAY OF HELPING, what evidence do you have to come to the conclusion that persons in other islands think differently than Antiguan & Barbudan's? Have you spent any significant time in any of those islands? I recall you some months ago arguing about differences in culture yet you could not identify one distinct thing.

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@ Dig it

#29 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 21:11

Remember the election with UPP and ALP went to court, well, I am willing to bet that the Privy Council, the court in England would have adjudicated the case in a completely different manner and the result would have been completely different. We here think differently and until we move away from that kind of thinking, i think we should limit Caricom.
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Dessalines

#28 tenman » 2013-02-10 21:09

Dessalines I made a specific point where the "disparity" is concerned: are you trying to suggest that large disparities in per capita income do not exist between EU members? You also wrongly suggest that countries can simply just join CARICOM. If that were true Haiti would have long been a member. Dessalines, at no point have I tried to say that the EU and CARICOM are exactly the same. I recall even citing a few historical differences. The specific issue that has always been raised has been the alleged disparity in wealth between CARICOM countries. Dessalines do you really believe that on the ground, the average Antigua makes at least 2600 EC per month? Those "disparities" are simply excuses to not do anything.

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@ Dig it

#27 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 21:08

Hey dig it, i agree with what Dessalines said. For me it is more a social issue but with some financial issue also coming into play
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@ Tenman

#26 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 21:06

Anyway it is not about winning a debate or showing how resources i am in research or how intelligent i am. I truly believe we are not ready for Caricom, none of us.

Implementing such policy now, will be a detriment to all, yes, all of the Caricom Members, for the politicians who completely give in to it, the people who are from the Caricom member countries. It will be a Social disaster especially in an Island of Antigua, the way we think.
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RE: Eyeing the Case Before the Caribbean Court of Justice

#25 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 20:55

@ Dessalines, wow, thanks for the support by providing hard facts. I will say it again, our culture is not conducive to Caricom type program, to an appeals court etcetera. We are not on that level yet and if we continue to pretend that we are this and that, it is why we are in the political state we are in.

I believe in us trading and having a relationship but not one as intimate as Caricom. We need to get to know each other first, go out on a few dates (get the same agenda, financially and socially). We, folks in the caribbean, us, are not on the date level yet. We are only on the level of talking over the phone.

Everyone, we do not have anything planned, processed implemented to carryout all, if not all, majority of issues that will deal with the issues that Caricom will bring.
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@ Tenman

#24 Dessalines » 2013-02-10 20:31

Not sure where you get your figures but Antigua's GDP per capita in 2012 was US17,500.00 vs Jamaica of US9100.00. That's what you call a disparity.
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@ Tenman

#23 Dessalines » 2013-02-10 20:13

You are again comparing apples and oranges with the EU and Caricom. The EU movement integration movement started in the late 1950s when France and Germany merged their steel and coal industries and then expanded from there over a period of 40 plus years. For countries to ascend to the EU they have to satisfy the conditions of membership which include (political, social and economic and legislative conditions ). It was never a free for all. In fact Hungary, Poland, Estonia etc joined the EU in 2004. However free movement of these citizens to work in other EU countries was only allowed in 2011 some 7 years later. This 'incubation' period is what separates the EU from Caricom.
So your point about disparities in economies is moot.
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RE: Eyeing the Case Before the Caribbean Court of Justice

#22 Antigua Bill » 2013-02-10 19:59

The EU, CARICOM and even the United States will soon go the way of the Soviet Union. I believe the that EU and the CARICOM will go in our lifetime. The CARICOM is an experiment destined to fail.
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@My Way Of Helping...ALL AH WE IS ONE PEOPLE? pt. 3

#21 Dig It » 2013-02-10 19:52

FIninally, my friend, in reality, they don't want to 'integrate' but want to be a part of the member state. Why sign up? Let me make it clear that no citizen of the member state should be subjected to be "assaulted-and- verbally-abused -by-Immigration officers," and then "wrongfully refused entry in that country." There is a saying in the Caribbean that ALL AH WE IS ONE PEOPLE. Yet, it is not the same when it comes to integration. Pure crapo, if you ask me!!!
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@My Way Of Helping...ALL AH WE IS ONE PEOPLE? pt. 2

#20 Dig It » 2013-02-10 19:50

My Way Of Helping, would you make the "same socioeconomical ly" agruement for for the EU? If so, would you agree to 'kick' Greece out of the Eu for its "debts" and "backsliding on austerity measures?" They will be "pros-and-cons" in any 'regional economic integration.' Besides "pooling resources," these countries can "reduce or remove tariff." Yet, as for CARICOM, as I said before this is more about our leaders "...will to push the agenda, and make CSME a reality by 2015." And, as Sir Ron stated
Quote:
The governments themselves have not done enough to address the problem, which if a solution is not found, will undermine the worth of CARICOM to many of its citizens.
When you think about it and look at it, those member states who are "resisting" CARICOM Integration are all 'hiding' behind that giant flag.
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RE: Eyeing the Case Before the Caribbean Court of Justice

#19 Antigua Bill » 2013-02-10 19:38

Some very interesting blogs today. I have taken a ringside seat and will enjoy my peanuts and sweet drinks as the narative plays itself out.
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@ Tenman

#18 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 19:37

@ Tenman, it may work in the EU, not sure if it is working there, the way it was intended. However, you are missing the Socio part of Socio-economic. Our black folks in the Islands, regions are completely different in thinking. it is why i am against a high court in the Caricom or caribbean at this time. I am using that same justification to say no, to a Caribbean Community (caricom) at this time, in the manner intended by Caricom.
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@My Way Of Helping...ALL AH WE IS ONE PEOPLE? pt. 1

#17 Dig It » 2013-02-10 19:36

My Way Of Helping, as our friend, Skyewill stated "We cannot compare CARICOM to the USA because the US is a country and CARICOM is many countries. We may however compare it to the EU because they have several countries and using the same currency." I hope we can all agree on that, as I wish to not 're-visit' this camparison again! My Way Of Helping you saidQuote:
This notion of freedom of movement for the CARICOM member states will be practically impossible for some Caricom members. This, i think will be more practicable if all the countries in the caricom are the same socioeconomically.

The purpose of CARICOM is for the member states to come together for Economic Integration: a group as well as individual states to become stronger or more developed. Obviously, they can't all be the "same socioeconomical ly," which will 'defend-the-pur pose' of the movement.
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MY WAY OF HELPING - EU

#16 tenman » 2013-02-10 19:18

MY WAY OF HELPING - Since disparities should result in no CARICOM, how do you explain the disparities which exist in the EU? For some EU countries their per capita income is as low as about 7K while for others it can be as high as 78K. Now some of these countries have fought wars against each other. How is it they have managed to at least have free movement yet we started the process (1973 signing the Treaty of Chaguaramas then in 1989 revised Treaty of Chaguaramas which called for a full single market instead of the 1973 limited common market ) before them (1992 -The Treaty on European Union is signed at Maastricht)?
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@ Tenman

#15 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 17:18

Why did you write that if you believed it was a bad comparison? Is it like the comment suggested that you did not think first?

Read more: http://www.caribarena.com/antigua/opinions/opinion-pieces/sir-ronald-sanders/103097-eyeing-the-case-before-the-caribbean-court-of-justice.html#ixzz2KX7F5brK

I WILL IGNORE THIS comment as i am sure you did not get the point.
Traveling from country to country is different than traveling from a state to state or village to village within the same country. I expect much more understanding from you TENMAN. But again, i know how it is there
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@ Tenman

#14 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 17:11

Yes, i used USA to state what i would like to see with folks FROM other countries travelling into other caribbean countries, by issuing greencard, independent. however, mother earth was comparing oranges to apples. saying traveling within the USA from state to state is comparable to that of traveling from country to country within the Caricom. A state is part of the United STATES, one country. While traveling within the Caricom is traveling from country to country (completely independent countries).

I believe because of how some country men thinks, that ease of movement will always be an issue and CARICOM will never be able to exist in the manner it was intended until all countries within it, become equal, socio-economically.

You can but in anytime, actually, anyone can repsonse to my questions or comments.
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MY WAY OF HELPING - per capita income

#13 tenman » 2013-02-10 16:49

MY WAY OF HELPING using your US example (rightly or wrongly) are all states in the US the same "socioeconomica l" (socioeconomica lly)? Maryland has $70,004 in 2011 vs Mississippi 36,919 for the same year. You ever took the time to compare the per capita income of JA ($9,100 USD IN 2011) vs Antigua (11,940 USD and dropping as of 2011 -- was 15,592 USD in 2008)?

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@ tenman

#12 SlyThatGuy » 2013-02-10 16:47

Tenman, basically, what you pointed out about our immigration - the fact that they make things much more difficult for our CARICOM brothers and sisters than for strangers - is the plain truth. And that very problem,i'm terribly afraid,is one of the reasons why CARICOM system will not work exactly as the USA system. Our immigration would never allow people from within the CARICOM nation to travel freely from one island to another in the same manner the United States allow people from the US Virgin Island to travel freely to the mainland to search for work among other things.
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MY WAY OF HELPING

#11 tenman » 2013-02-10 16:25

MY WAY OF HELPING, excuse me for **ing in, but was it not you who first used the US example in comment 2013-02-10 05:51?
Quote:
I believe in the USA system, filing for greencard and proving elements that you qualify for a greencard before you get the priveleges of living, working etcetera.
Why did you write that if you believed it was a bad comparison? Is it like the comment suggested that you did not think first?


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@ Dig it and Skywille

#10 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 16:01

This notion of freedom of movement for the CARICOM member states will be practically impossible for some Caricom members. This, i think will be more practicable if all the countries in the caricom are the same socioeconomical ly.

Caricom will never be accepted fully and by most of the leading countries in the Caricom member states that are wealthy.
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@ Mother Earth

#9 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 15:35

How on Earth will you compare One country, with its states (the same country) with the Caricom (different countries)?

If you laugh this morning, then that speaks of your understanding. However, again. I truly believe that all countries should be independent in terms of government but be available to trade, correspond. There are to many issues that will arrive from this, it is the same reason, why i am not comfortable with any court headed by caribbean individuals, especially appeal type court.

If you need more reasons why they should stay away from such "CARICOM" type policy, reply back for my email address.
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Eyeing the Case

#8 SAM » 2013-02-10 13:49

What would be contribution to Barbados that would warrant a stay? these people think that world owes them something, they need to get a life and move on. I totally in agreement with BARBADOS. These could & would be burden on the system that is set inplace for their nationals. I wish that Antigua would do the very same, too many of them are in one place & tehy are trouble whereever they landed. GO HOME TO JAMAICA, YOU ALL ARE A BUNCH OF DRAMA QUEENS CONSUMED BY YOUR LIES, DON'T EVER FORGET THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT, YOU GUYS ARE STILL NOT WELCOME.
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Court ruling part II

#7 Dessalines » 2013-02-10 12:33

Myrie was disqualified from entry into Barbados due to the fact that her host, a woman named xx xx was unable to meet her at the airport and instead sent a a man named xx who was xx xx xx xx in Barbados. Myrie was allegedly suspected of being a victim of human trafficking and refused entry to Barbados. Barbados was within it's rights to refuse entry and this seems clear cut.
What the CCJ has to rule on is if Barbados neglected to fulfill it's obligations under the treaty in it's treatment of Myrie after she had been denied entry. Was she treated humanely? etc
I don't see this case as setting a "binding precedence" for all Caricom states. If Myrie is telling the truth then the immigration officials breached standard procedure and the existing tenets of the treaty. We do not need a court ruling or additional rules to tell us that.
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Been there, seen that!

#6 skyewill » 2013-02-10 12:31

1. In its present form, operating like all the government do in the EC, CARICOM is a joke. They are a do nothing, pompous set of lazy Bureaucrat who like their governments is parasites on the backs of the poor. However, Caricom is a good idea if it would do what it was created to do, which is to build economic empowerment for all its member states. We cannot compare CARICOM to the USA because the US is a country and CARICOM is many countries. We may however compare it to the EU because they have several countries and using the same currency. In any case today’s CARICOM is just an excuse for the fat cats to have a vacation at a 5 star hotel with all the nyamings and luxury, a good opportunity to leave the wife at home and meet the girlfriend for a fun weekend, Champaign and caviar on taxpayers dime.
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Court ruling part I

#5 Dessalines » 2013-02-10 12:24

According to Myrie’s lawyers, denial of her right of entry was “unjustifiable, arbitrary and thus led to discrimination.
Are the lawyers suggesting that a Jamaican citizen has the "right" to entry in any Caricom territory in general and Barbados in particular? There are two facets to this case - the denial of entry and abuse suffered by the complainant. Under Barbadian law only Barbadian citizens have the right of entry into the country -all other nationals have to satisfy basic entry requirements i.e return ticket, sufficient financial resources, a valid address, a host person (if not staying at a hotel) and last but not least purpose of visit.
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My way of helping....."i believe in the US system" ????

#4 Mother Earth » 2013-02-10 09:21

@ my way of helping. Are you for real or looking to make me laugh this morning? How can you suggest that we do away with Caricom???

"Quote:
I believe in the USA system, filing for greencard and proving elements that you qualify for a greencard before you get the priveleges of living, working etcetera
"

How many times did you have to say this to yourself in order for you to believe it. Are you aware that US citizens can travel to any of the 50 states freely? Isn't this almost the same thing? except we may need to impose more restrictions and checks.

Furthermore, it is beneficial for us small islands to come together. We do not have the resources to stand firmly on our own, that is the reason why we have institutions such as: Eastern Caribbean Central Bank (ECCB), Caribbean Examinations Council (CXC) and University of the West Indies. We need to collaborate in order to have a stronger voice internationally and also regionally.

So please, please, please engage brain before putting mouth(in this case fingers) into action.
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RE: Eyeing the Case Before the Caribbean Court of Justice

#3 tenman » 2013-02-10 08:57

We have all heard the talk of how unfriendly immigration officers are in Barbados. The bad treatment is not only extended to Jamaicans and Guyaneses but also to persons from the Eastern Caribbean. In one instance we admit based on the many studies and common sense that CARICOM is needed due especially to our small size. Yet, as if by instinct, the dislike for persons looking like us kicks in. I have always found it telling that we are more welcoming to persons from countries which we can see on nightly news, have very bizarre crimes. Right after 911, we argued it unfair for US officials to force its citizens to have passports, and that drivers license and other picture ID's were quite ok, since the passport requirement would affect our tourism dollar. Strangely the bar we insist must be set much higher for our CARICOM brethren
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We can't cheery pick in the integration movement

#2 Dig It » 2013-02-10 08:36

I am not a fan of CARICOM, and, will never be until its leaders of the 15 member states start taken "economic integration" seriously. The problem is we some member states who are continuing to show "resistance" to the movement with their 'harsh immigration' policies and fears of losing their having an "influx" of non-nationals at their shores. And, then you have most of its leaders who lack the will to push the agenda, and make CSME a reality by 2015. As PM Dr Ralph Gonsalves said “You cannot expect to cherry pick in the integration movement, the CSME. Freedom of movement is an important dimension of the CSME,”
www.thewestindiannews.com/jagdeo-and-gonsalves-raise-new-barbados-immigration-policy-at-chog-meeting/
I hope the Shanique Myrie's case at CCJ really "change" the outlook of CARICOM. Perhaps then we will see a different attitude with its leaders!
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NICE ARTICLE

#1 MY WAY OF HELPING » 2013-02-10 05:51

Informative, i like this article. I think doing away with Caricom should be. Each country, if have this privelege of moving around freely willnot be as motivated/deter mine to change their socio-economic situation for better for the people.

I believe in the USA system, filing for greencard and proving elements that you qualify for a greencard before you get the priveleges of living, working etcetera. i truly believe everything one country attain, the other can, every country has the resources, may be different resources, but i truly believe all countries have equal resource, their own unique resources.

Now, you use these resources, to trade, barter. All countries should be independent. However, politeness, respect should be given to all countries
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Sir Ronald Sanders

Sir Ronald Sanders is a business executive and former Caribbean diplomat who publishes widely on Small States in the global community.

 

 

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