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**tenman** » 2012-02-02 20:37

interested read the contract at the url already provided and you will find it is you who is wrong. It makes clear its the government of Antigua who is responsible for making the payments. It seems to prefer to go with what others have stated other than what the contract says.
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**InteresteD** » 2012-02-02 16:29

Tenman is wrong AGAIN......the loan is to the government as it's a Government to government loan.....there are no payments being made by the Government..... ..APUA signs off on the work when it is completed and the EximBank pays directly to the Chinese contractors.... ..no money ever comes into the Governments or anyone from Antiguans hands from EximBank .........the Chinese contractors then pay there workers....when the time comes for the repayment of the loan after the 5 year moratorium t hen APUA will service the loan!,,,,!!, Again.......you are wrong......

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 23:29

Guess 2The loan agreement states: Quote:

The Government of Antigua & Barbuda represented by the the Ministry of Finance And Economy As Borrower and Export Import Bank as lender

http://www.caribarena.com/antigua/component/attachments/download/128.html

Guess 2 in both cases (Antigua & Haiti)though the governments are directly paying, the utility company's are indirectly paying the loan. you really want to continue arguing a point you have lost?

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**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 23:10

Tenman,

Signing a loan agreement on behalf of someone and paying the loan are two different things. The Haiti Governmant is paying back the loan. The company does not have that cost. Are you suggesting that The Government of Antigua and Barbuda is paying back the loan instead of APUA?

**Guest2** » 2012-02-01 22:41

I have been avoiding guessing by asking you for cost that contribute to the build up. You seem not to appreciate that. You want me to guess.

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 22:38

guess 2 the government in Haiti is directly responsible for making payment but that does not mean that the electricity company has no costs. The same thing obtains in Antigua with the Chinese loan. Its the government who signed the loan agreement not APUA

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**Guest2** » 2012-02-01 22:36

Where in my post that I expressed that the cost to generate should equal the cost to distribute?

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 22:14

Guess 2 is Haiti not part of petrocaribe, arn't we all paying market price for fuel from Venezuela? The answer is yes to all.

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**tenman** » 2012-02-01 21:49

Guess 2 honestly this is becoming a waste. You are not answering questions all you are doing is making guesses. Anyone who believes it sensible that the cost of generating electricity should equate to the costs of delivering the final product to the consumer is being illogical. Since we are now using labor costs as factor, what's the labor costs in the US in comparison to Antigua? I would think it much higher. Using your logic their electricity costs should then be be at least half of ours. It averaged 11.53 for the entire us (31 cents ec for 2010). For a fairer compassion I pointed you to Saint Lucia (via the previously provided url), I stated that while they were charging some 66 cents ec per kilowatt hour, we at the time charged a little over a 1.00.
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**tenman** » 2012-02-01 21:34

guess 2, are you trying to suggest that the generation of electricity is a labor intensive exercise? What happen the fellas there busy mashing some pedal?

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**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 21:20

Do you know what the Haitians pay for their HFO compared to what APUA pays?
How about labour cost?

**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 21:16

Tenman,

Do you know that the US57 million dollar for Haiti's 30MW plant will be paid back by the Government and that the power company does not have that cost to worry about?

**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 20:57

I looked back at my electricity bill from 2003 and I notice that the base rate is the same as it is now. Can you tell me how APUA has been able to hold the base rate at that level while the cost of every item that goes into that base rate has risen significantly? The only adjustment that has been made to the bill is the fuel variation. My understanding is that HFO has risen from $ 2.35 to $9.30 per gallon. That is a significant rise dont you think so?

**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 20:33

Caribarena says 20 cents. Lets assume that that is correct. What is the current cost per gallon for HFO and what is the average fuel consumption per MWH between the two plants?

**jeb** » 2012-02-01 20:19

@ InteresteD. When it looks like crap, operates like crap, then odds are, it is crap…the people have a right to know how and where their monies have been spent for items that in actuality belong to the people. DS, BS, plus yet to be determined, do not own these engines, the people DO. Hadeed owns his engines so if he has a problem it is up to him to investigate same; however, the people own, and have to pay for, this overpriced Chinese one…that fact alone says that no apology for any investigation is owed to anyone. Molwyn Joseph is absolutely right about the sound of new engines versus old ones. Credible word also says that these engines have required an extreme/numerou s amount of expensive “part replacements”…s omewhat questionable for new engines that should be running “smoothly” as opposed to “rough” sounding older ones that tend to need a constant supply of parts like gaskets and fuel pumps etc., wouldn’t you think? I’m not a mechanic but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know and be aware of the basics in low maintenance requirements for new good quality engines versus an old one of suspect origin and installation.

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 20:18

guess 2 the url I provided for that caribarena article please take a read especially the part about LUCILEC, I think we (the posters) had a good debate that day. I think the LICICEL model is what we need to go to.

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**tenman** » 2012-02-01 20:11

Guess2 according to Caribarena, Thursday, 04 November 2010 the charge is 20 cents ec per kilowatt hour(this charge does not include the fuel charges) (see http://www.caribarena.com/antigua/news/latest/10614-apua-ordered-to-pay-apc.html). Are you now ready to answer my question or do you have more questions?

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**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 20:01

Are you suggesting that EngineMan was being sarcastic? Then what about the headline on the article? "Another unsettling discovery at the power plant"

**Guest 2** » 2012-02-01 19:53

Tenman do you have any information as to what APC charge APUA?

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 19:27

guess 2 i suspect the poster was being sarcastic. You are to answer my questions about costs?

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**Guest2** » 2012-02-01 19:00

Tenman read the question again

**InteresteD** » 2012-02-01 18:15

I hope that when the Chinese, EximBank, APUA and the Government release all the information regarding the Power Plants that all you experts will apologize.."... including the dumbest comment I have ever heard.""Molwyn Joseph saying he listened to the engines and they did not sound new!!!! What ignorance...... so letsnsay the engines cost 150,000 yuan, and the water pumps cost.........oh well I will let the experts say so..."...I really hope you experts apologize

**DadliMan** » 2012-02-01 18:08

How is it that every living thing this Ambassador gets involved with turns out to be a financial nightmare? We have never gotten any accounting for the millions of dollars spent on roads around the stadium. Now we have this fiasco. I guess we have more fun to look forward to with the airport terminal.

Why does an Ambassador need to emerse himself in these matters? Don't we have a competent Ministry of Finance? Or, is there some honey in the rock that we don't know about?

**tenman** » 2012-02-01 17:48

guess 2 I suspect the possibility of them blowing up is more unlikely than likely. I suspect worse case is probably higher fuel consumption costs and a shorter life span than a newer one. I also do not agree that the costs for generating electricity is as low as 14 cents ec (its closer to 14 us cents) per kilowatt hour. I suspect that Haitian document for their 30 MW plant can offer us some guidance on the true cost of generation per kilowatt hr. The document found at the International Finance corporation (an arm of the World Bank) website www.ifc.org/ifcext/spiwebsite1.nsf/0/7B5D48107710B263852576BA000E2D06 states:
Quote:

due to the use of this 30 MW HFO generator, assuming a cost of oil between US$ 60 -80 per barrel the cost per kw hour will be US¢ 15-17 per kWh (max 46 cents EC)

Guess2 why is APUA currently charging as of my December bill some 1.16 EC per kilowatt hour when even assuming a cost per barrel of 100 The max would be 19 cents US (51 cents EC) per kilowatt hour and I can't see you arguing with these figures since you have been suggesting the plant (at least the engines) is new?
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**Coopin** » 2012-02-01 17:27

When Tief tief from tief.........Go d Laugh !!!
And what go round......come round !!!

**guess 2** » 2012-02-01 16:42

Tenman,

Do you agree with engineMan that the power plant could e-xplode as a result of the mistake of engraving 12vMAN30/40 instead of 12vMAN 32/40 on the engine? I notice that so far he has a +8 rating for positive comment

**backburner** » 2012-02-01 14:30

I have never seen a Chinese in any line inland revenue Social security etc is there a special waiver for them???? Mr. Ambassador while these Chinese projects may be welcomed or needed we all have a right to know at what cost to Antiguians and the reality is that if all these projects don’t have any room for local contractors that sit home now with nothing to do than the big money that you so proudly sit back and call investments for Antigua will all be in vain. So Mr. Ambassador it’s your time to shine let’s see how good you are!!

**backburner** » 2012-02-01 14:30

We also are not impressed with your explanation as to why so many retail Chinese stores are opening all over Antigua. Let me refresh your memory that under the ALP administration when Sunny store opened on Long Street you openly accused Lester Bird of trying to shut down your business in fact you allegedly accused him of having shares in the business. Now seven years later the Chinese are coming into Antigua in droves to do projects and after they simply remain here and opening all kinds of businesses that x know are allegedly heavily subsidised by china making it almost impossible for the private sector to compete. This is the same private sector that has been carrying this economy for the last seven years and have been heavily burdened with excess taxation in an economy that is stagnant. Questions for you. I have never seen a Chinese in the long line with our caricom brothers and sisters outside of the immigration department are you telling me that these people all have Antigua Passports before your time????

**backburner** » 2012-02-01 14:28

OPEN LETTER TO THE NON RESIDENT AMBASSADOR TO CHINA.
Dear Sir
I have tried over the past few months to have this letter printed in the local media but I guess you having the protection of the one local newspaper it was never printed. I cannot believe that you as our Ambassador to China cannot stand up and simply tell us the facts, after all you were the one who negotiated the deal on behalf of Antigua and Barbuda and while you may feel that you are not obliged to say anything the majority of Antiguians want an explanation. While I will give you some credit for helping Antigua through China with some much needed help with certain projects we by now have to admit that the street lights and now the power plants have turned out to be a disaster

**The Wadadli Blogger** » 2012-02-01 12:30

This is power plant issue is gonna bring down the Baldwin Spencer administration one way or another because of his actions.

1-If he conitues to drag his feet like he does not care that we the people seem to be getting ripped off here he should get a no confidence vote against him.

2-If infact it is found out that there is some kind of corruption involved here he should get a no confidence vote against him.

Either way this situation is not good for us the people of Antigua & Barbuda who at the end of the day will seem to be stuck with a lemon for a power plant and a suicide contract to go with it!!!

**Jumbee Picknee** » 2012-02-01 12:24

Such numbers are usually stamped at or near the operating panel box. An equipment of this nature which is made of several components probablly has several such numbers. The approved submital stamped by the engineer is where the investigative reporting should begin.

**dutchman** » 2012-02-01 11:47

I think that you are all making a mistake .
The number that is cast in the engine block is a casting number ,the model number is on the plate that is riveted to all the engines .
What the earlier published pictures show is very sloppy installation and nobody cares to clean up the mess that was left by leaking fuel oil.
The engineers working at this plant ,whether they are chinese or antiguan,should be ashamed of them selves

**Community Organizer** » 2012-02-01 11:32

I believe we need to find some ways or means to organize the general public and file a petition to the Chinese Governement and let them know that our leaders are missing in action but will one day have to account for their actions while in PUBLIC office. And if China knows what is good for them they would cooperate with the people and be transparent with this deal. Future governments won't have a reason not to make payments towards this loan

**The Fly** » 2012-02-01 11:31

there are non so blind as those who refuse to see!

**Holy Ghost** » 2012-02-01 11:29

Questions:
1) Did the Company which sold the generators sign a "Confidentialit y Agreement"?

2) Was the stadium furnishings purchased through a confidentiality agreement with the Trinidad Company?

4) Could the Antiguan and Barbudan public get to see a contract if a "Confidentialit y Agreement" was signed with the Company selling the engines?

5) Should APUA have signed a "Confidentialit y Agreement" with this Company?

this may be the reason everyone has remained quiet! we may need a court order to see the agreements. this will only happen if the Prime Minister as the substantive Minister over APUA calls a full inquiry or investigation over this.

will he throw out his ambassador to save his government? i'll wait and see.

Big Up! to Carib Arena for taking over the role of the old media WATCHDOG! all Antigua and Barbuda is indebted to you!

**ANTIGUAN WOMAN** » 2012-02-01 11:15

I guess APUA had no direct input into this entire scenario.Howeve r when the opening was held,they could arrogantly announce it was a proud moment for Anu/Bar,guess like everyone else in positions,they sucked up to whatever/whoeve r to keep that position,afraid if too many questions are asked they may find themselves out the door,Who pays for these injustice?? We the people, my last bill was over $900,of that charge fuel variation was $600+, no way can this be right.At this moment i am really too tired been angry to be angry anymore, I will instead pray for those who willfully use their powers to hurt and injure others.

**Murice.M.C** » 2012-02-01 10:28

No one with any common sense can make such stupid comments ... Is he saying once he gets current in his home ,People should not care about the cost involved?? You are paying $1.10 per kw. Generating cost is less than .14c ec. The Bal is fuel and suger cake money.
SO you dont care if we paid 52m usd for a new powerplant and ended up with a used/refurbish Diesel Guzzler!!! The fact Antiguan workers are replaced with Chinese,and the Million being spent to operated an outdated plant,that China will not use....

**EngineMan** » 2012-02-01 10:24

The entire power station could e-xplode from this mistake

**Judge Dredd** » 2012-02-01 10:22

While we Antiguan tax payers will ultimately foot this bill, it is the Chinese government that has advanced the money to the supplier. Remember, the Chinese Government DID NOT supply any engines. They just paid the bill on behalf of David and Baldwin.

**marco polo** » 2012-02-01 10:20

When politicians get elected, "Transparency" and "Accountability " may as well be the names of two exotic dancers.... They don't want to be caught photographed with any one of them.

**JP Farnsworth** » 2012-02-01 09:44

call them folks they have all the cool toys to check these things out. All I know is the lights in my house are on! Isnt that whats really important?
Okay so you have an unauthorized photo taken and blownup by someone with a copy of photoshop and information is coming from disgruntled employees. I call that sensational journalism, it's like the 3 headed alien baby but better.

**today** » 2012-02-01 09:29

You must not use your brain too much, just because MAN says they are new doesn't mean they are new! the so called proof is not concrete, MAN might not be the problem here there is also the Chinese.

I wont believe it till i see it and what i did see is the power plant and it doesn't look new.

Also why would Caribarena want to change the pictures around, i think they are smart enough to know that doing this would be dangerous for many reasons!

**Colin** » 2012-02-01 09:04

Who is this local car dealer? I am anxious to speak to him (or her).
My number is in the book.

**Enquiring** » 2012-02-01 09:03

I remember the GM of APUA when being intervied by a reporter at Observer and asked if the pictures on Caribarena where authentic, he said he had not seen them. However, he stated that Winston Derrick and any engineer of his choosing could have visited. Not sure if this happened but I would love if experienced generator specialist like Alex Raeburn and english expat Douglas Luery who have installed many of the large generators at properties around Antigua look at these engines and give an unbiased view. Another thing.. it should be made clear if the loan amount covers building and other fixtures and equipment other than the engines. Many might not be aware but buildings made to house heavy equipment like generators have to be re-inforced to bear the weight and become very costly. I definitely want to know if we got value for money or if APUA is paying for some of the other supposedly gifts from the Chineese.

**Colin** » 2012-02-01 09:02

You are one who is confused.
Mann did not sell any generators to A&B.
Mann therefore has never confirmed anything except that "as far as they know" the gensets sold to A&B by SXD (Mann's licensee) are "supposed" to be new.
Baldwin Spencer, David Shoul and Esworth Martin have the proof - do they dare to reveal it?
Please get the blue brainwash out of your head and try to see straight!

**EngineMan** » 2012-02-01 08:59

This is really unsettling in truth. I hope they do not compound this mistake by turning on that engine where the 0 was mistakenly placed instead of a 2. This could be catastrophic. The entire power station could xxxe. The APUA engineers should insist that this engine be scrapped rather than expose the workers to such risk. Caribarena you are so great.

**DadliMan** » 2012-02-01 08:57

First, the Chinese are renowned for counterfeiting products. In fact, it is the counterfeiting capital of the world. Just about anything under the sun is copied and counterfeited in China. In short, the counterfeiting is responsible for the cheap prices of products coming out of China.

It should therefore be no surprise to us if the “Chinese engines” turn out to be Man knock-offs. The secrecy and lack of transparency surrounding this matter certainly gives credence to my theory.

**Hmmmmmm** » 2012-02-01 08:33

Another photo shop picture will be the answer for that picture according to a local car dealer who is going around saying the pictures are all Photoshop.

**Reece** » 2012-02-01 08:11

Dear David,

Please come forward and tell us that this is not true. we beg you.

Baldwin please come forward and tell us the truth.

Clarvis Joseph please come forward and tell us the whole truth.

please put this mess to rest.

**G.tree** » 2012-02-01 07:20

On a point of clarification, it's a backslash and not hyphen, between the numbers 32 and 40 as stated in this article.

I believe the below is the model number you're looking for.

MAN 12V32/40

**Smoke n Mirors** » 2012-02-01 06:58

Finally investigative work being done by the media. I don't understand how Antguans aren't angry & demanding the truth from the government they elected. They ran on transparency & accountability. Where is it now?
We want & demand answers.

**woods** » 2012-02-01 06:27

The Chinese were always great at producing fakes, they are the worlds greatest copycats when it comes to producing mechanical or computerized products...Ever y little child knows that.

**Hmmm** » 2012-02-01 06:24

Caribarena.. with this new discrepancy I must voice what has crossed my mind a few weeks ago. Perhaps your pictures are not a true representation of the engines at APUA. How do we know this for sure without any sort of definitive identification. I recall a story that you also published saying that Mann has confirmed that they sold new engines to APUA. So I dont get it, am totally confused....... why are you still trying to make allegations without concrete proof?

**carvaa** » 2012-02-01 06:23

Why do you think after making any deal with these small countries, the Chinese government always insist that their contractors, engineers, scientist, all in all there people must be in control of every fraction of work required, and usually the Governments of the caribbean will agree to it because a new stadium, airport and even a power plant etc when completed and put in a campaign speech could mean another term in office.
So forget about jobs for your country men and women so long as we have a finish product for all eyes to see what we the government of the day have accomplish. If a local man from Wadadli had the first go at this same power plant he would have notice all this right from the get go.

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